Masks
- Thread starter Marcas
- Start date
Ignatz, I do go my way but I'm not irrationally stubborn (well, sometimes I'm ). I conclude that you do not have arguments. Of course this is not a prove that I'm right but...
I do not understand your (rhetorical?) questions. My interpretation of data I showed is, indeed, good. I did not flatten any curve.
Here is another interesting thing:
If this is true you should divide mortality rate by 80.
I recommend little exercise, for when you have some time. Compare data media use with real data. Is there any difference. Why?
Andrew, can you show any material to support thesis that face masks prevent spreading virus? I mean with a slightest scientific approach, not media "report".
I do not understand your (rhetorical?) questions. My interpretation of data I showed is, indeed, good. I did not flatten any curve.
Here is another interesting thing:
(Todd Lowdon -- Successful senior executive with deep experience in data-enabled SaaS services for content, information, and digital health markets. Accomplished in crafting and implementing corporate and go-to-market strategies involving a broad range of solutions and multiple market segments.)
If this is true you should divide mortality rate by 80.
I recommend little exercise, for when you have some time. Compare data media use with real data. Is there any difference. Why?
Andrew, can you show any material to support thesis that face masks prevent spreading virus? I mean with a slightest scientific approach, not media "report".
Profound pontifications above from individuals who, I suspect, do not have M.D. degrees. Here's a question to ponder: if you are having open heart surgery are you comfortable if your surgeon decides not to wear a mask, gloves, and surgical cap? Face masks (cloth at the time) and gloves were introduced in surgery in the late 19th century because surgeons observed a decrease in post-op infections when face and hand coverings were utilized. While the use of a mask is only partially effective in helping to protect an individual from contracting the Coronavirus (or any virus), a mask is extremely effective in helping to prevent the spread of infection to others. And, regarding a vaccine, just as we do not have a bNAb-generating (broadly neutralizing antibody) vaccine for AIDS, we don't know if one can be produced for Coronavirus, particularly a vaccine which would confer lasting immunity. An effective and safe vaccine may not be forthcoming in the immediate future. Some may recall the swine flu vaccine of 1976 which was discontinued due to the increased incidence of Guillain-Barre syndrome in many recipients. Establishing herd immunity by "medieval" methods (allowing mass infections with deaths of middle-aged and elderly individuals, persistent or permanent post-infection sequelae in many survivors, etc.) poses not only moral and ethical dilemmas to a society, but also decreases the work force and GDP. I'm sure that everyone has noticed the profound difference in the infection rate curves for the EU and the US. Europe suffered early, took appropriate draconian measures, and is now re-opening carefully. The US, by contrast is now a pariah in the international community.
Dan, you are mixing two things. I hope not deliberately. Wearing mask by surgeon while operating and forcing public to wear masks everywhere. You are implying that I'm against using masks all together, and try to ridicule me for that. This is not fair. Being MD you should be aware or can easily understand dangers of wearing face masks for long periods of time. You are talking about 'medieval' methods and allowing 'mass infection and deaths". As I shown by data this is not the case at all. Are you suggesting that we may stop spreading infection by wearing masks?
Sure if you use 'draconian measures' and lock everybody out you slow down spread, but for what cost and what is the goal here. Do you think you can stop it completely?
Sure if you use 'draconian measures' and lock everybody out you slow down spread, but for what cost and what is the goal here. Do you think you can stop it completely?
Andrew, just show me the data.
I think I expressed my concerns clearly enough. I don't want to answer every insinuation or unprecise, vouge suppositions. As I do not believe strategy sellers and throw my money at them, I wont take your solemn confirmations that you are right especially if available to me data say contrary.
I think I expressed my concerns clearly enough. I don't want to answer every insinuation or unprecise, vouge suppositions. As I do not believe strategy sellers and throw my money at them, I wont take your solemn confirmations that you are right especially if available to me data say contrary.
to make a long story short: you have to flatten the curve.
you can discuss now for months what to do, if it helps or not wearing a mask (and there are a lot of preprints who confirm this), while the numbers are getting higher and higher.
Or you take some action. EU does. Numbers confirm that.
i would really be scared when i look at this numbers
you can discuss now for months what to do, if it helps or not wearing a mask (and there are a lot of preprints who confirm this), while the numbers are getting higher and higher.
Or you take some action. EU does. Numbers confirm that.
i would really be scared when i look at this numbers
JoeA, to replay your question.
As general: I really do have valid questions about number used for the graph. Some data indicate that number of cases for US can be much higher. I do not know about European numbers much.But let's take the graph for the face value, means lets assume that data are correct.
What is apparent is the difference between EU and US. What can be the underlying reason? It can be strict restrictions and strict reinforcement of them in UE. What Tom said about being harassed and fined by police on the streets of Belgium applies to other EU counties (to my knowledge). We can reasonably assume that this is the reason for difference in curve shapes. There can be other reasons but let's ignore them.
Why restrictions were applied? To 'flatten the curve'. Why? To allow pass through the pick without overwhelming medical capacity of each county. Severity of restrictions depended on each country, or continent, number of available hospital beds. For what I know in US we passed through the peak without major infrastructure problems. Yes, there were voices about lack of respirators but I hope you are aware that it is at least doubtful. Nevertheless I do not hear voices about necessity to flatten the curve anymore. How so, if graph show we are above the peak in US?
Reason is simple. Predictions were based on false assumptions. Fauci was waving 5%+ death rate to push his agenda. Check what actual rate is.
Back to graph. Which curve is better? US curve is much better. Why? We have big part population exposed to virus and that number grows every day. This is good news because the sooner the whole population have immunity to corona the sooner the whole thing is over (from medical point of view).
In EU, on the other hand, there is very little immunity in society today. That means the 'corona thing' will last much, much longer with all economical and political and psychological consequences.
Which approach is better? I have no doubt that US.
If mortality rate was much higher, I don't know 10 - 20%, it can be, _can be_ , better to lock everybody down to slow spreading of infection to gain time to develop cure. Even vaccination could make sense in that scenario. But mortality is very low. Number of cases grows almost exponentially and number of deaths goes down. So don't be scared by growing number of infections. This is how things works.
I wonder what will be next thing to scary people when infections number start going down. I tell you that I have no doubt there will be something.
I hope I answered your question. Feel free to ask if something is unclear or if I misunderstood what you asked for.
EDIT: I shoudn't say "US apprach is better" but "US curve is better'" I hope you see the difference.
As general: I really do have valid questions about number used for the graph. Some data indicate that number of cases for US can be much higher. I do not know about European numbers much.But let's take the graph for the face value, means lets assume that data are correct.
What is apparent is the difference between EU and US. What can be the underlying reason? It can be strict restrictions and strict reinforcement of them in UE. What Tom said about being harassed and fined by police on the streets of Belgium applies to other EU counties (to my knowledge). We can reasonably assume that this is the reason for difference in curve shapes. There can be other reasons but let's ignore them.
Why restrictions were applied? To 'flatten the curve'. Why? To allow pass through the pick without overwhelming medical capacity of each county. Severity of restrictions depended on each country, or continent, number of available hospital beds. For what I know in US we passed through the peak without major infrastructure problems. Yes, there were voices about lack of respirators but I hope you are aware that it is at least doubtful. Nevertheless I do not hear voices about necessity to flatten the curve anymore. How so, if graph show we are above the peak in US?
Reason is simple. Predictions were based on false assumptions. Fauci was waving 5%+ death rate to push his agenda. Check what actual rate is.
Back to graph. Which curve is better? US curve is much better. Why? We have big part population exposed to virus and that number grows every day. This is good news because the sooner the whole population have immunity to corona the sooner the whole thing is over (from medical point of view).
In EU, on the other hand, there is very little immunity in society today. That means the 'corona thing' will last much, much longer with all economical and political and psychological consequences.
Which approach is better? I have no doubt that US.
If mortality rate was much higher, I don't know 10 - 20%, it can be, _can be_ , better to lock everybody down to slow spreading of infection to gain time to develop cure. Even vaccination could make sense in that scenario. But mortality is very low. Number of cases grows almost exponentially and number of deaths goes down. So don't be scared by growing number of infections. This is how things works.
I wonder what will be next thing to scary people when infections number start going down. I tell you that I have no doubt there will be something.
I hope I answered your question. Feel free to ask if something is unclear or if I misunderstood what you asked for.
EDIT: I shoudn't say "US apprach is better" but "US curve is better'" I hope you see the difference.
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No doubt?
The data doesn't support your view at all. You are just "supposing". We are all entitled to our opinions...sigh.
JoeA, can you explain what data doesn't support my point of view and which of my 'supposings' bother you?
I don't get what you say.
think of this szenario: there is a war and an enemy has a new weapon and you dont have a chance against this weapon now.
Your approach is: let them kill as many soldiers as possible until they have no more bullets.
or is it better to defend as much as possible and try to get information how this weapon works, what strategy could help, what could eliminate this weapon ?
You are "supposing" here, especially since we're now at a new peak (that hasn't yet ceased peaking) which can clearly be seen in the graph above.
wow, US 127,410 deaths and talking about some harm.... and this number will be going up the next 14 days dramatically. For sure.
i think you have this opinion exclusively