Masks
- Thread starter Marcas
- Start date
To me not peer reviewed means no expert has checked if it's true or not
Here is one of the things I found in one of the comments
Filter efficiency was measured across a wide range of small particle sizes (0.02 to 1 µm) at 33 and 99 L/min. N95 respirators had efficiencies greater than 95% (as expected). For the entire range of particles tested, t-shirts had 10% efficiency, scarves 10% to 20%, cloth masks 10% to 30%, sweatshirts 20% to 40%, and towels 40%. All of the cloth masks and materials had near zero efficiency at 0.3 µm, a particle size that easily penetrates into the lungs.4
Another study evaluated 44 masks, respirators, and other materials with similar methods and small aerosols (0.08 and 0.22 µm).5 N95 FFR filter efficiency was greater than 95%. Medical masks exhibited 55% efficiency, general masks 38% and handkerchiefs 2% (one layer) to 13% (four layers)
Here is one of the things I found in one of the comments
Filter efficiency was measured across a wide range of small particle sizes (0.02 to 1 µm) at 33 and 99 L/min. N95 respirators had efficiencies greater than 95% (as expected). For the entire range of particles tested, t-shirts had 10% efficiency, scarves 10% to 20%, cloth masks 10% to 30%, sweatshirts 20% to 40%, and towels 40%. All of the cloth masks and materials had near zero efficiency at 0.3 µm, a particle size that easily penetrates into the lungs.4
Another study evaluated 44 masks, respirators, and other materials with similar methods and small aerosols (0.08 and 0.22 µm).5 N95 FFR filter efficiency was greater than 95%. Medical masks exhibited 55% efficiency, general masks 38% and handkerchiefs 2% (one layer) to 13% (four layers)
Not sure how you came to the conclusion that the 10K new infection is from people not wearing the mask and everyone would have been safe if they were wearing the mask I would have to disagree with that conclusion
I would imply that it is more likely that is partially due to more testing and probably more vistors to florida and from younger folks getting together for parties or other activities that implies closer contact with the mask on It could also be from people leaving the lockdown states to get a little freedom and mingling with other people
Another reason could be that since the restrictions were lifted and people have the false impression that if they wear the mask they can be closer togehther
I don't have an answer as to why there is an increase in numbers
You could argue that the restrictions were lifted too soon or that people are acting irresponsibly by getting too close in large crowds with or without mask
I am just not ready to jump to that conclusion that these new cases are due to people not wearing the mask
I would imply that it is more likely that is partially due to more testing and probably more vistors to florida and from younger folks getting together for parties or other activities that implies closer contact with the mask on It could also be from people leaving the lockdown states to get a little freedom and mingling with other people
Another reason could be that since the restrictions were lifted and people have the false impression that if they wear the mask they can be closer togehther
I don't have an answer as to why there is an increase in numbers
You could argue that the restrictions were lifted too soon or that people are acting irresponsibly by getting too close in large crowds with or without mask
I am just not ready to jump to that conclusion that these new cases are due to people not wearing the mask
Igantz, you ignore what I said and relentlessly sing your song. I explained why 10K new cases are not a concern, just look at the number as 10K more people are immune. The faster we get herd immunity the better. With official death rate it is not an issue (real rate is likely smaller than official number). Lockdowns and other actions of this kind only elongate whole process bringing destruction and peoples suffering. There is no medical reasons for that.
Read this:
ZeroHedge
ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
www.zerohedge.com
words come from somebody who's directly involved in practical public health. His conclusions are exactly the same as mine (which I derived from data and logic, not from experience). Sure, fact that we came to the same conclusion doesn't make us automatically right, we still may miss something important, but repeating propaganda song over and over again wont make you right either.
I don't intend to stop you from what you are doing, especially if it makes you feel better, but maybe you care to explain why 10K Florida number scares you? Use your own words rather than pointing at some number or link or playing offended to avoid debate. I do not insist, do what you will.
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There are 2 problems with the concept of Coronavirus herd immunity in my view. First, although neutralizing antibodies are present in people who have been infected and recovered, the actual neutralizing antibodies (IgG immunoglobulins) are proteins which, by their very nature, decline over time if the antigen (the virus) is no longer present in the body to serve as a stimulant for ongoing antibody production. Second, lasting immunity requires the presence of specific T lymphocytes (so-called "memory" cells) which will recognize a new exposure to the antigen (virus) and stimulate B lymphocytes to produce immunoglobulin antibodies again or to stimulate macrophages to attack cells which are coated with viral particles. WHO studies have determined that many people who have recovered actually have very low levels of circulating antibodies and could, at least theoretically, be susceptible to subsequent infections. It is unknown at this time whether cellular immunity (conferred by T lymphocytes) is present in Coronavirus survivors. Therefore, it is premature to assume that the U.S. will have herd immunity after 70% of the population has been infected. As many of you know, the Covid-19 virus is one of at least 7 coronaviruses which can infect humans. Four of these cause the "common" cold. As we all know, people do not have immunity to subsequent "colds". All the factors above illustrate the dilemma of choosing between a "let 'er rip" philosophy in which the virus is allowed to penetrate a society unabated by intervention and a "mitigation" philosophy in which a society (like Japan, China, South Korea, and the EU) institutes proactive measures to slow the spread of the virus and allow time for the development of vaccines and effective therapeutics. Ultimately, it becomes a societal issue, in my opinion.
herd immunity: IF there can be one (which is not confirmed) let´s talk about the number you are talking about.
70 % of 320 million population of infections mean 224 million infected
mortality: at the moment: infected 2,753,754, deaths 128,871 quote: 4,68 % JHU
that means: you are expecting about 10,482,818 deaths in USA
not to mention what impact that will have on economics etc.
EU-way: keep infections low and there are news today a vaccine might be available in Jan/Feb 2021.
70 % of 320 million population of infections mean 224 million infected
mortality: at the moment: infected 2,753,754, deaths 128,871 quote: 4,68 % JHU
that means: you are expecting about 10,482,818 deaths in USA
not to mention what impact that will have on economics etc.
EU-way: keep infections low and there are news today a vaccine might be available in Jan/Feb 2021.
in germany even less than 300 are a concern.
i don´t know what relatives will do when you tell them: he or she died by something dangerous like a water balloon.
Please note that my comments were apolitical and meant to address, in general terms, the concept of "herd immunity" as it relates to a population of susceptible individuals. My comments were intended to illustrate basic tenets of immunology and epidemiology. I have my own views, of course, but I prefer to keep them to myself. Ultimately, we (the U.S. people) will determine our fate.
Texas and California do it now. All idiots ?
Well said, Dan! This is exactly why we should forego whatever "intuition" we THINK we might have w.r.t. this crisis in favor of the guidance from the CDC. That the average citizen believes he/she "knows better" is a direct reflection of the insidious consequences of continuing attacks on the concept of Expertise since 2016.
Dan, thanks for your voice.
Let me address what you brought up.
First one.
It is not a problem at all. You described how immune system works (at least what we know about it). Mechanism of fighting Corona is no different than fighting any other pathogens. Lowering level of antibodies over time is not an abnormality and is well known for years. For example in case of tetanus, if there is such a need, you can get 'booster shot' to speed up body's response. Tetanus is much more danger than Corona. Speeding up wake-up process makes sense.
If virus became inactive in society, there is no need for body to waste energy to sustain high level of anybodies. This part of defence system slowly goes dormant and is reactivated only when needed.
So, first 'problem' is not a problem at all.
Second - presence of T-cells.
Let me write down some thoughts in points, so you can separately oppose each one.
1 Source of info. This point is a bit political. I heard about this report from WHO. WHO is known for providing self contradictory studies and guidance depending on actual political wind direction. There are publicly know events of WHO activity that are outright criminal or at least that rquire criminal investigation, yet nothing happens. Everything is swept under the rug. I do not want to enter debate of what WHO is and what it is not, just pointing to highly politicized agenda WHO is driven.
2 That report you mentioned was refuted by follow up studies. Same happen with rate of infection announced by WHO, if you remember.
3 Even assuming that it is true that Corona does not invoke lasting immunity system response and you can contract it second time (remember it was debunked by other studies, S. Korea, if I remember correctly, initially reported the same, but later retracted that info) then what is the danger we are taking about? If you listen to media you may believe that you will die twice, if you look at data you just shrug your arms. Well, if you are in high risk group you want to take precautions but rather than isolating whole society you apply it to yourself and work on improving immunity system.
(I'm not arguing that COVID is just imagination, but that there is no medical reasons for what is happening).
4 Applying observation only. You hear here and there concerns that you can get sick twice. There may be even some real cases of that - what can happen for many reasons, lack of immunological memory is just one of many possibilities - but it does not happen on scale that should rise any real concerns. I didn't hear about them at last. Otherwise we will hear about that all day long as every peace of info is used to scare people regardless of validity of information, not to mention truthfulness.
5 Note, that if COVID-19 produces no immuno-memory defies purpose of any vaccination. The only thing we can use is serum - but nothing justifies that from medical point of view either. But then again, what is the reason for lockdowns, forced masks etc?
All that raises question you put at the end: are measures brought on society and economy to fight Corona justified? Data shows they are not. Particularly not by two problems you raised.
@Ignatz,
No, I do not. You are using wrong data. The same was done at the beginning, which was the underlying reason for actions that were taken. Back then you could somehow justify calculations by lack of actual data and use models to predict what you wanted to predict. Today, to do so is a strange act. Numbers you use do not match actual data.
Also you are using math wrong. 5% death rate applies to manifested cases not the whole society.
I try not to use that language nor that 'political logic', so I try not to engage in such to avoid impression that I do.
Can you be more specific. What do you mean by 'IF'? There is nothing relevant I know about that can change natural course of action.
Let me address what you brought up.
First one.
It is not a problem at all. You described how immune system works (at least what we know about it). Mechanism of fighting Corona is no different than fighting any other pathogens. Lowering level of antibodies over time is not an abnormality and is well known for years. For example in case of tetanus, if there is such a need, you can get 'booster shot' to speed up body's response. Tetanus is much more danger than Corona. Speeding up wake-up process makes sense.
If virus became inactive in society, there is no need for body to waste energy to sustain high level of anybodies. This part of defence system slowly goes dormant and is reactivated only when needed.
So, first 'problem' is not a problem at all.
Second - presence of T-cells.
Let me write down some thoughts in points, so you can separately oppose each one.
1 Source of info. This point is a bit political. I heard about this report from WHO. WHO is known for providing self contradictory studies and guidance depending on actual political wind direction. There are publicly know events of WHO activity that are outright criminal or at least that rquire criminal investigation, yet nothing happens. Everything is swept under the rug. I do not want to enter debate of what WHO is and what it is not, just pointing to highly politicized agenda WHO is driven.
2 That report you mentioned was refuted by follow up studies. Same happen with rate of infection announced by WHO, if you remember.
3 Even assuming that it is true that Corona does not invoke lasting immunity system response and you can contract it second time (remember it was debunked by other studies, S. Korea, if I remember correctly, initially reported the same, but later retracted that info) then what is the danger we are taking about? If you listen to media you may believe that you will die twice, if you look at data you just shrug your arms. Well, if you are in high risk group you want to take precautions but rather than isolating whole society you apply it to yourself and work on improving immunity system.
(I'm not arguing that COVID is just imagination, but that there is no medical reasons for what is happening).
4 Applying observation only. You hear here and there concerns that you can get sick twice. There may be even some real cases of that - what can happen for many reasons, lack of immunological memory is just one of many possibilities - but it does not happen on scale that should rise any real concerns. I didn't hear about them at last. Otherwise we will hear about that all day long as every peace of info is used to scare people regardless of validity of information, not to mention truthfulness.
5 Note, that if COVID-19 produces no immuno-memory defies purpose of any vaccination. The only thing we can use is serum - but nothing justifies that from medical point of view either. But then again, what is the reason for lockdowns, forced masks etc?
All that raises question you put at the end: are measures brought on society and economy to fight Corona justified? Data shows they are not. Particularly not by two problems you raised.
@Ignatz,
No, I do not. You are using wrong data. The same was done at the beginning, which was the underlying reason for actions that were taken. Back then you could somehow justify calculations by lack of actual data and use models to predict what you wanted to predict. Today, to do so is a strange act. Numbers you use do not match actual data.
Also you are using math wrong. 5% death rate applies to manifested cases not the whole society.
I try not to use that language nor that 'political logic', so I try not to engage in such to avoid impression that I do.
Can you be more specific. What do you mean by 'IF'? There is nothing relevant I know about that can change natural course of action.
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so you say Johns Hopkins University is telling wrong data. Can anbody else confirm that (scientifically proven !) ?
2: Do you have a plan B if herd immunity doesn´t work, which you will know soonest in about 2 years when you might get 70 % ?
meanwhile thousands of people died including damage for economy, society etc. 128,871 already died and wait for the data in about 3-4 weeks !
3: FFP 2 mask work well, about 95 % protection. Others less.
4: Virus is NOT a "water balloon", it´s mortal for a lot of people, the older the higher the risk, same for adipositas, diabetic, high blood pressure etc
that´s complete nonsense and simply not true.
for you one more time: flatten the curve (distance, mask, no crowds, corona app), then slowly reopen as we do now. IF there is anywhere a hotspot they immediately close the area. so happened in Gütersloh in a meatfactory, 7000 workers, 1500 infected. all immediately in quarantine for 14 days, all tested and also the population in the area Gürersloh. Same happened in Berlin, Göttingen, Bayern etc.
You can only act like this if the NUMBERS ARE LOW ! when you have over 10,000 infected in Florida it´s nearly impossible and you should do a complete shutdown for min 14 day. But they refuse. So the virus will spread and spread and spread and spread.....
Using mask when go shopping or using bus or train etc. is not a big thing. Nearly everything is possible again except big events like football etc.
52,300 new infections in USA today, germany 446.
6: Curevac say may be Jan or Feb a vaccine is availbale
7: a new mutation increases infectivity https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30820-5
herd immunity: 2 nations tried this way here: Sweden and Great Britain.
Sweden has 4 times higher deaths than for example germany relative to population. But populationdensity is much much lower in sweden, which should be an advantage. and meanwhile there are some things resticted
Great Britain tried it at the beginning but soon they switched to lockdown but have now the highest number of infections and deaths in Europe. they simply missed the best time to take action. Now the damage happened.
Sweden has 4 times higher deaths than for example germany relative to population. But populationdensity is much much lower in sweden, which should be an advantage. and meanwhile there are some things resticted
Great Britain tried it at the beginning but soon they switched to lockdown but have now the highest number of infections and deaths in Europe. they simply missed the best time to take action. Now the damage happened.
that is again NOT TRUE ! Do you get infected, when you talk to a person who got infected by tetanus ??????
the virus spreads most especially at the beginning when you even didn´t notice that you are already infected, because it´s in the mouth and throat and can easily spread while talking, singing, shouting etc.
And the virus mutates all the time, thats why old vaccine doesn´t help.
First one is a BIG PROBLEM. Every serious Virologist will tell you. And i mean serious Virologist, not Hobby Internet Doctor or "leader"
the door for the virus: mucous membran which means: Mouth, Nose, Eyes.
a FFP 2 mask protects Mouth and nose and has about 95 % protection, then the last entrance for the virus is ? the eyes.
Do you really believe that nearly all people get infected by the eyes ? really ????
'You might kill somebody else': Doctor equates not wearing a face mask with drunk driving | CNN
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention now says everyone "should wear a cloth face cover when they have to go out in public." CNN's Brian Todd reports that mask requirements in the US are greatly inconsistent; a major reason why cases are spiking.
edition.cnn.com
Ignatz, you are completely ignoring what I said and keep repeating yourself.
It is simple misunderstanding . I was talking about immuno-mechanizms involved inside the body, not the way of spreading.
I have impression that flattening the curve is your final goal. You just don't understand that flattening per se does not prevent anything but extends duration of 'pandemic' by spreading cases over time to avoid overloading medical resourses available for society.
Ignatz, I don't see the point of our further exchange. We can not communicate. Do wear cloth mask as CNN's doctor suggests. I do not oppose.
@Andrew, thanks for the link. I read it.